The following testimony comes from Vol 8 of the Leonard Peltier trial on Mar
25, 1977 during cross examination.
The witness Norman Brown was fifteen years old in Jun of 75. He was 13
years old when he attended his first Sundance, and had resided on the
Jumping Bull compound for two weeks.
For those of you not familiar with trial procedure and rules, a cross
examination of a witness introduced by opposing counsel as "their" witness
(this individual was treated as a "hostile witness" by gov attorneys) cannot
go beyond what was introduced in the direct questioning. The matters able
to be brought up on cross can only be directed toward that which the
prosecution had already, even obliquely referenced in their examination.
This witness was able to exchange a hug with Leonard Peltier....
I present this portion of testimony as what the Tent city encampment was
about, and as importantly what it was not....
GOV ATTORNEY: MR. HULTMAN
LEONARD PELTIER'S ATTORNEY : MR. TAIKEFF
"COURT" THE JUDGE
WITNESS: NORMAN BROWN
Q Do you know or have you ever heard the expression, "traditional Indian"?
A Right.
Q Are the elders you speak of people who are described as traditional
Indians?
A Yes.
Q Can you briefly explain what that means in terms of how {1584} they live
their lives?
A They depend on themselves and nature and the medicines; and their
thoughts are always concerned about people. You mean how they live?
Q Yes. I am following your answer. You can continue your answer, just as
you are giving it.
A "Traditional", what I think it is is people that live in harmony with
nature and that -- well, that's about all I can say.
Q Is there any special connection between traditional people and the
American Indian Movement?
A Yeah. They are the same because the thoughts are the same and both
thoughts are for the unborn, I think that's what you wanted to know, I
don't know.
Q You live on a Reservation?
A Yeah.
Q How many people live on that Reservation?
A About 145,000.
Q How many of those would you say live a traditional Indian life?
A Well, about 120,000, I guess, yeah, almost three-fourths of the people
there.
{1585}
Q Do you know anything about the political activities of AIM concerning
life and political matters on the reservation?
A What do you mean?
Q Well, besides the religious aspects of the activity, there are aspects
concerning who governs the Indian people and how they are governed on
behalf of AIM.
A Well, I guess they're trying to put across that native people want to
live, you know, in the sovereign way and depend on themselves and their own
traditional kind of government.
Q Were Leonard and Dino and Bob involved in any activities like that on
the Pine Ridge Reservation in June of 1975?
A What do you mean? I don't understand.
Q Were they working with the people there?
A Right. They were. Were working with them and they were with us. Medicine
man come into our camp. There was a spiritual camp and it was, we took
sweat lodges together, other people. They come and talked to us and, you
know, help us with the food and, you know, help us in that way. And, you
know, that's what the people came to the camp for.
Q The people who live on Pine Ridge came to your camp?
A Yeah. Lot of people.
Q Lot of people?
A Yeah.
Q Were you trying to encourage them to do something? Were you trying to
get them to do something, to live a certain kind of way?
{1586}
A Yeah.
Could you say that again?
Q Yes. These people who came to you, were you trying to persuade them to
live their lives a certain kind of way and take up the old traditional
Indian way?
A Yeah We told them that, you know, that we think that the traditional
form of government would be better than the present government there
because the traditional form of government is a, it's with nature, the law
of nature, and we feel that no law is greater than our law, that's the law
of nature: love, peace and respect. That's what, you know, we tell them
that way is better.
Q While you were on the reservation, did you talk to other people about
their treaty rights?
A No, I didn't. No.
Q Do you know if Leonard did?
A Yeah. Yeah. I don't know too much about it. Oglala, their nation, I
don't know their treaty. Know very little about it.
Q I'm not asking you about the content of the subject matter. I'm just
trying to find out about the activities of the people who lived in tent
city, what their work was, what their activities were. Do you understand
that?
A Yeah.
{1587}
Q When you speak of treaty, or when I ask you about the treaty, what kind
of a treaty are you talking about? With whom was the treaty that you
referred to?
A With the government. I think the one you're talking about is 1868 Fort
Laramie Treaty.
Q Yes. Tell us briefly of what your understanding is about that as far as
it concerned the activities of the people from tent city, what connection
they had with the subject of the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty.
A Well, the subject, the way I understand is when they first, when our
nation first signed the treaty with the government, I guess they did with
all Indian people, is when they signed that paper, or they were forced to
sign it, I don't know, I think the understanding is that we go on separate
roads. This road would be traditional form of government, the native people
on this side and our white brothers and sisters on this side (indicating).
So we're trying to tell them, you know, "Not supposed to touch, stay on
this side because there come a time when," like there is two boats, two
canoes, the white people on this side and the Indian people on this side.
You're either in one boat or the other and you can't sit in both boats at
one time. Like my elder told me this that when there is a wind, he said a
wind is going to come and separate these and the people that live the white
way and the Indian way, the boats are {1588} going to separate and those
guys are going to fall to disaster. Just take this side, this is the only
way. This [what] is the creator meant for us to be.
Q Your message to the people on the Pine Ridge Reservation was don't live
your life like a white person if you're not a white person, live your life
like the native American has always lived his life, is that a fair summary?
A Well --
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor. Excuse me, Norman. Your Honor, I haven't entered
any objection at this time and I think I have been lenient but I would at
this time now interpose an objection that the matter we're now getting into
there is no showing of relevancy and it's clearly beyond the scope of
direct examination.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I recognize Mr. Hultman in fact has restrained
himself. However, on direct examination he asked the witness whether he
knew anything of the work that was being done by Leonard Peltier and the
other adult males. The answer was no. I don't know that the witness
understood the question at that time and I'm addressing myself to that
direct testimony at this particular time.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, my objection is that I would have no objection to
any showing of relevancy in terms of any activity that did go on. The only
thing we have heard is a general discussion of philosophy. That's the basis
for {1589} my objection. If there is any showing of any kind that there was
specific activity, then there might be some probative value, but my
objection goes clearly to the point there has been no showing of any kind
of any specific activity.
THE COURT: As I understand the relevancy which defense counsel is
asserting is he is attempting through this witness to establish to the
extent of this witness' knowledge of the purpose of this group's presence
at this particular location at that time.
MR. TAIKEFF: That is correct. And it is specifically addressed to the fact
that the direct examination, there was a question as to whether the witness
knew what Leonard and Bob and Dino, the adults of the group, were doing
there and the answer was, "No" and I'm probing that answer. I think the
answer was given as it was because the witness may not have understood the
importance or the impact of the question.
THE COURT: Well, within those limits of relevancy I will permit you to
proceed.
A Could I answer that question back there? The last one?
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) I have no objection.
A What you say that wind is going to separate them apart with the
movement, the American Indian Movement is going to. I guess that answers
your question. That wind has to do that.
Q What did you and the other people from tent city do about {1590}
spreading that word, about bringing that information to other native
American people?
A Would you say that again.
Q Yes. I'll try it a different way.
Am I correct that you wanted the native American people living on Pine
Ridge to assert their rights under the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty and live
independently of the white culture?
A Yeah.
Q And that you wanted the native American people at that location and
perhaps in all locations to live their life by the religious beliefs, the
traditional native American religious belief?
A Right.
Q What did you do in order to bring this message to the people on the
reservation?
A What did I do?
Q What did you and the people from tent city? You said people came to you
from different places on the reservation.
A Yeah.
Q Was there any connection between those people coming to you and what you
wanted them to learn from you?
A Trying to tell of a new direction. You know, to go the direction of,
like you said, traditional government, or like I said.
{1591}
Q And did you hold religious ceremonies?
A Yeah.
Q How often?
A Lots. About, used to have in the morning and then at night and came to
be we had it every day. Sweat lodge.
Q Were the native American people welcome to come and participate?
A Yeah. They did come and take in the sweat lodge with us.
Q And was that part of your program, part of your way of persuading them,
of helping them see the new way which was really the old way?
A Yeah.
Q You mentioned a place called Crow Dog's paradise. Would you tell us what
that place is.
A It's a place where each year that they have the sacred sun dance every
year and the place where people meet, like to sun dance. That's what it is.
When people from all over come together and think with the same mind and
thoughts and pray for all walks of life. That land there is sacred.
Q When you speak of all walks of life, you don't mean all different kinds
of people, you mean people and animals, don't you?
A Yeah. People. Black, yellow, white and red. That's what the sun dance is
all about.
Q Leonard Crow Dog is a medicine man?
{1592}
A Right.
Q His father was a medicine man before him?
A Right.
Q And you consider him a holy man, do you not?
A Right.
Q You said when Mr. Hultman was questioning you that you went to the sun
dance for the first time when you were 13 years old.
A Right.
Q Is there any connection between the first time you go to sun dance and
becoming a man?
A No, it's not. It's not that. It's like, not like, you don't do that just
because you become a man. You thank our creator, we thank him. Like if we
offer him tobacco or a horse or something, it's already his. We offer
ourselves. We belong to ourselves but we're his children and these are our
own bodies so we offer him all we have got, offering ourselves to him so
that, you know, we can live in harmony and have a good understanding of
nature.
Q From your contact with Leonard Peltier, would you say that he is a
spiritual man?
A Right. Everybody in the camp was spiritual. Yeah.
Q Did you think that if you had to use a gun to protect the young women
that you would be giving up your spiritual nature?
A No. Because to me, you know, as to everybody in the camp, {1593} as we
learn, I guess, since we were small that, you know, all life is sacred, you
know.
Q Did you see all life is sacred?
A And we had to protect, you know, lives is what we done [did].
Q Now you traveled when you were quite young many different places in the
western part of the United States, isn't that correct?
A Right.
Q Is that part of your life as a native American person, traveling from
place to place and living in different places or different periods of time?
A What?
Q Did you live in different places, is that a cultural thing to live in
different places at different times?
A Yeah. I guess so.
Q How long did you live on the Pine Ridge?
A About two weeks.
Q How many different times did you live on the Rose Bud Reservation?
A Last year. This would be my fourth time this year.
Q This year will be your fourth time?
A Yeah. How many different reservations have you lived at from time to
time so far in your life?
A About five.
{1594}
Q Were there things that the people in tent city had that everybody used?
A Yeah, there was. What do you mean?
Q Well, for instance, sometimes you had one gun, then another time you had
a different gun. Is that unusual amongst Indian people to use things that
way so that it doesn't seem to belong to just one person?
A Yeah.
Q Is that the Indian way?
A Yeah.
Q How do you describe that? Do you have a word that you can use in English
to describe that?
A What do you mean like? Say the question again.
Q Yes. You shared many things.
A Yeah.
Q With your brothers and sisters, didn't you?
A Yeah.
Q You said that there were times when you saw Leonard with a certain gun.
A Right.
Q Did he sometimes have a different gun?
A He might have. I don't know.
{1595}
Q Did you always use the same gun?
A No.
Q You said that sometimes Leonard drove the red and white van?
A Yeah.
Q Did anybody else ever drive that van?
A Yeah.
Q Who else?
A Well, I drove it once and Joe and Dino drove it.
Q Did you share your food?
A Right.
Q Did you share whatever money you had?
A What money?
Q Did you share between yourselves whatever you had?
A Yeah.
Q Is that the Indian way?
A Right.
Q You refer to Joe Stuntz as your brother. I assume you meant that in the
spiritual way?
A Right.
Q Jimmy Zimmermann separated from the group on June 26, 1975; isn't that
correct?
A Right.
Q Was that just about the time the group was leaving and moving south?
{1596}
A Yeah. This is when we all got together and we were ready to leave. And
before we left when we got together, he should give himself up because, you
know, he might get hurt.
Q Why did you think he might get hurt?
A Because people were shooting at us.
Q Now, in giving your direct testimony and talking about the two men who
were at the cars, the one with the long gun and the one with the handgun,
you've referred to them as agents, right? You said they were agents?
A Right.
Q You now that they were agents of the FBI; isn't that correct?
A Right.
Q When the shooting was going on did you know that they were agents of the
FBI?
A No.
Q You told us that you saw Leonard shooting from that place where the
junked cars are and you also said you saw the agents shooting?
A Yeah.
Q Which one did you see shooting first?
A I don't know. It was just -- I don't know who shot first, but they were
shooting at each other I could tell.
Q Well, when you looked, which did you look at first and see shooting?
{1597}
A Well, when I got up there I saw Leonard shooting. He's the first one I
saw shooting. And he backed down and his shots were not very fast. Shots,
just shots.
Q And how long after the shooting first started did you see Leonard
shooting?
A I don't know. Just happened so fast. I don't know.
Q How long did it take to go from tent city over to the houses?
A About a minute and a half. Me and Joe went up to that little hill.
Q And then you went back to tent city?
A Yeah. And then we ran back all the way from there and then back to tent
city. Minute and a half, two minutes.
Q Did you ever see a person by the name of Jean Day at the Jumping Bull
community?
A No.
Q Do you know whether there was a woman with Leonard Peltier, either
living with him or his girl friend?
A No.
Q Did you ever see a person by the name of Myrtle Poor Bear at the Jumping
Bull area?
A No.
Q Do you know who she is?
A Now I do.
Q When was the first time you met her?
{1598}
A I mean not now. I met her, but I know who she is when I read in the
paper. I don't know her.
I never talked to her, just I heard of her.
Q You never saw her on the Pine Ridge Reservation?
A No.
Q Did you ever see a person by the name of Anna Mae Aquash at the Jumping
Bull community?
A Yeah.
Q Did you ever see a person by the name of James Eagle at the Jumping Bull
community?
A No.
Q Did you ever hear, either on June 26, 1975 or before June 26, 1975 any
talk from the people who were with you on the Jumping Bull compound or
community, did you ever hear any talk about killing FBI agents or killing
BIA police officers?
A No.
Q I asked you a few moments ago about a James Eagle.
A Yeah.
Q Do you understand that that person may also be known as Jimmy Eagle?
A What?
Q Do you know anyone named Jimmy Eagle?
A Yeah. That's the same person.
Q Okay. You never saw that person at the Jumping Bull compound?
{1599}
A No.
Q Was there ever any talk amongst the people or the Jumping Bull community
about an ambush?
A No.
Q Are you sure of that?
A Yeah, I'm sure.